Don't applaud. Either laugh or don't. (At the Comedy Cellar.) Read online

  Contents

  About the Author

  Title Page

  Copyright Page

  Dedication

  Prologue

  CHAPTER 204

  CHAPTER 203

  CHAPTER 202

  CHAPTER 201

  CHAPTER 200

  CHAPTER 199

  CHAPTER 198

  CHAPTER 197

  CHAPTER 196

  CHAPTER 195

  CHAPTER 194

  CHAPTER 193

  CHAPTER 192

  CHAPTER 191

  CHAPTER 190

  CHAPTER 189

  CHAPTER 188

  CHAPTER 187

  CHAPTER 186

  CHAPTER 185

  CHAPTER 184

  CHAPTER 183

  CHAPTER 182

  CHAPTER 181

  CHAPTER 180

  CHAPTER 179

  CHAPTER 178

  CHAPTER 177

  CHAPTER 176

  CHAPTER 175

  CHAPTER 174

  CHAPTER 173

  CHAPTER 172

  CHAPTER 171

  CHAPTER 170

  CHAPTER 169

  CHAPTER 168

  CHAPTER 167

  CHAPTER 166

  CHAPTER 165

  CHAPTER 164

  CHAPTER 163

  CHAPTER 162

  CHAPTER 161

  CHAPTER 160

  CHAPTER 159

  CHAPTER 158

  CHAPTER 157

  CHAPTER 156

  CHAPTER 155

  CHAPTER 154

  CHAPTER 153

  CHAPTER 152

  CHAPTER 151

  CHAPTER 150

  CHAPTER 149

  CHAPTER 148

  CHAPTER 147

  CHAPTER 146

  CHAPTER 145

  CHAPTER 144

  CHAPTER 143

  CHAPTER 142

  CHAPTER 141

  CHAPTER 140

  CHAPTER 139

  CHAPTER 138

  CHAPTER 137

  CHAPTER 136

  CHAPTER 135

  CHAPTER 134

  CHAPTER 133

  CHAPTER 132

  CHAPTER 131

  CHAPTER 130

  CHAPTER 129

  CHAPTER 128

  CHAPTER 127

  CHAPTER 126

  CHAPTER 125

  CHAPTER 124

  CHAPTER 123

  CHAPTER 122

  CHAPTER 121

  CHAPTER 120

  CHAPTER 119

  CHAPTER 118

  CHAPTER 117

  CHAPTER 116

  CHAPTER 115

  CHAPTER 114

  CHAPTER 113

  CHAPTER 112

  CHAPTER 111

  CHAPTER 110

  CHAPTER 109

  CHAPTER 108

  CHAPTER 107

  CHAPTER 106

  CHAPTER 105

  CHAPTER 104

  CHAPTER 103

  CHAPTER 102

  CHAPTER 101

  CHAPTER 100

  CHAPTER 99

  CHAPTER 98

  CHAPTER 97

  CHAPTER 96

  CHAPTER 95

  CHAPTER 94

  CHAPTER 93

  CHAPTER 92

  CHAPTER 91

  CHAPTER 90

  CHAPTER 89

  CHAPTER 88

  CHAPTER 87

  CHAPTER 86

  CHAPTER 85

  CHAPTER 84

  CHAPTER 83

  CHAPTER 82

  CHAPTER 81

  CHAPTER 80

  CHAPTER 79

  CHAPTER 78

  CHAPTER 77

  CHAPTER 76

  CHAPTER 75

  CHAPTER 74

  CHAPTER 73

  CHAPTER 72

  CHAPTER 71

  CHAPTER 70

  CHAPTER 69

  CHAPTER 68

  CHAPTER 67

  CHAPTER 66

  CHAPTER 65

  CHAPTER 64

  CHAPTER 63

  CHAPTER 62

  CHAPTER 61

  CHAPTER 60

  CHAPTER 59

  CHAPTER 58

  CHAPTER 57

  CHAPTER 56

  CHAPTER 55

  CHAPTER 54

  CHAPTER 53

  CHAPTER 52

  CHAPTER 51

  CHAPTER 50

  CHAPTER 49

  CHAPTER 48

  CHAPTER 47

  CHAPTER 46

  CHAPTER 45

  CHAPTER 44

  CHAPTER 43

  CHAPTER 42

  CHAPTER 41

  CHAPTER 40

  CHAPTER 39

  CHAPTER 38

  CHAPTER 37

  CHAPTER 36

  CHAPTER 35

  CHAPTER 34

  CHAPTER 33

  CHAPTER 32

  CHAPTER 31

  CHAPTER 30

  CHAPTER 29

  CHAPTER 28

  CHAPTER 27

  CHAPTER 26

  CHAPTER 25

  CHAPTER 24

  CHAPTER 23

  CHAPTER 22

  CHAPTER 21

  CHAPTER 20

  CHAPTER 19

  CHAPTER 18

  CHAPTER 17

  CHAPTER 16

  CHAPTER 15

  CHAPTER 14

  CHAPTER 13

  CHAPTER 12

  CHAPTER 11

  CHAPTER 10

  CHAPTER 9

  CHAPTER 8

  CHAPTER 7

  CHAPTER 6

  CHAPTER 5

  CHAPTER 4

  CHAPTER 3

  CHAPTER 2

  CHAPTER 1

  EPILOGUE

  ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

  NOTES

  DON’T APPLAUD.

  EITHER LAUGH OR DON’T.

  (AT THE COMEDY CELLAR)

  ANDREW HANKINSON is a journalist who was born, raised, and lives in Newcastle upon Tyne. He started his career as a staff writer at Arena magazine and in 2012 won a Northern Writers Award. He is now a freelance feature writer who has contributed to many publications, including Observer Magazine, The Guardian, and Wired. He also teaches at Newcastle University. His first book, You Could Do Something Amazing With Your Life [You Are Raoul Moat], won the CWA Gold Dagger for Non-Fiction in 2016.

  Scribe Publications

  2 John St, Clerkenwell, London, WC1N 2ES, United Kingdom

  18–20 Edward St, Brunswick, Victoria 3056, Australia

  First published by Scribe 2020

  Copyright © Andrew Hankinson 2020

  All rights reserved. Without limiting the rights under copyright reserved above, no part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in or introduced into a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means (electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise) without the prior written permission of the publishers of this book.

  The moral right of the author has been asserted.

  9781911617686 (UK edition)

  9781925713541 (Australian edition)

  9781925693690 (ebook)

  Catalogue records for this book are available from the National Library of Australia and the British Library.

  scribepublications.co.uk

  scribepublications.com.au

  For my wife and children

  Author: This is a book about the Comedy Cellar, a comedy club in New York. Do you care about the Comedy Cellar in New York?

  Stewart: Well, not really.

  It’s 8 June 2018. The author�
��s interviewing Stewart Lee in the Hawley Arms, in Camden Town, London.

  Author: I want to ask you about the broader debates that are going on, which you’ve talked about loads and loads, so I’m sorry if it’s boring for you, I hope you don’t mind, but this club, the Comedy Cellar in New York, was opened in 1982 by an Israeli immigrant called Manny Dworman.

  Stewart: Yeah.

  Author: He’d been a folk musician.

  Stewart: Yeah.

  Author: And he smoked pot every day.

  Stewart: Yeah.

  Author: He wanted to cultivate the Comedy Cellar as this place of debate.

  Stewart: Right.

  Author: And free speech.

  Stewart: I think I’ve been there but I can’t remember, because in two thousand and …

  Author: Four?

  Stewart: Four or five, I did about a week of seven-minute slots in New York clubs and they’re a blur because they all look exactly the same. They all have a brick wall thing at the back.

  Author: The Comedy Cellar’s got a brick wall at the back and a Middle Eastern restaurant upstairs called the Olive Tree.

  Stewart: I probably did it.

  Author: So this guy started it and wanted everyone to debate. He had some right-wing views.

  Stewart: A Libertarian.

  Author: Exactly. So he hired Arab and left-wing staff and comedians to sit around the back table of the Olive Tree and argue, like a salon.

  Stewart: But he tried to manufacture a salon, and normally they grow organically.

  Author: Right, but he started a book group and handed out reading material, most of it, like, pro-Israel.

  Stewart: Yeah, yeah.

  Author: So that’s what interested me, but when I ask if you’re interested in a book about the Comedy Cellar, like most people, you don’t give a shit.

  Stewart: Yeah.

  Author: So I want to frame the book with this conversation, showing that what it’s about are the values he cultivated, such as open debate and free speech, and when I get to free speech you’ll think I’m an arse, but I’m just trying to get answers.

  Stewart: Well, I think free speech is a really difficult term now because these things move at incredible speed don’t they, due to social media and the internet. Now the free speech debate seems to be monopolised by what you’d call the alt-Right.

  Author: Which makes it an uncomfortable place to argue from.

  Stewart: Which makes it an uncomfortable place to argue from.

  [After thirteen minutes]

  Stewart: They’ve got this night at the Backyard club in Whitechapel where you can go and say the unsayable and all these things that you’re not allowed to say anywhere else, and I always thought on the circuit you could sort of say it anyway. I mean, there wasn’t a stranglehold of political correctness, but what was good about political correctness was it made people think they might have to justify what they were saying.

  [After eighteen minutes]

  Stewart: They accused us of trying to be blasphemous and I thought, if you were trying to be blasphemous, why would you write this rather thoughtful thing which suggests we don’t live up to the standards of God? And also suggests that the Bible portrays the same sort of emotional struggles between its very human characters as you see in a Jerry Springer show? To me that wasn’t blasphemous. I thought, if you were being blasphemous you’d do this wouldn’t you, you’d vomit into the gaping anus of Christ, but still, if you’re a half-decent person, you can’t just do that. It has to be about something. What I tried to do was write something which on paper would sound terribly blasphemous, vomiting into the gaping anus of Christ, but hopefully make it meaningful and moving and funny, and not just shock horror.

  Author: Because political incorrectness can’t be a thing in itself?

  Stewart: It has to have a reason, yeah.

  Author: So I was looking at the criticism some of these American comedians were getting for what they were saying, and I felt very strongly I should defend free speech. I’m a writer, so I thought we should be able to write what we want or say what we want on stage. Then, about two years into writing the book, I started worrying about Bernard Manning. My dad went to see Bernard Manning and liked him, but I didn’t like some of the things my dad said, and I thought, would I have defended Bernard Manning’s right to go on stage and say the word ‘paki’, you know?

  Stewart: Well, I’ll tell you another thing that’s changed is this, right, you might be able to defend Bernard Manning’s right to go on stage and say the word ‘paki’ in front of a load of people who have made some sort of informed choice of whether to go through the doors of that venue to see a man who is known for saying the word ‘paki’. What’s different now is that YouTube and social media and whatever else propel offence like that into places where it’s indiscriminately spewed out.

  [After twenty-three minutes]

  Author: You talk about the character of Stewart Lee, and lots of comedians say things they don’t really mean or push in one direction when really they want to snap back in the other direction.

  Stewart: Yeah.

  Author: And I think you said Paul Provenza told you the stage should be treated like giant inverted commas, and you talked about Bouffon clowns, where you drew a circle around yourself on stage. That all seems to say this is a stage.

  Stewart: Yeah, but that doesn’t work anymore because the circle’s been punctured by YouTube and Twitter, and the stage is being filmed from an angle on someone’s camera phone that removes the inverted commas.

  Author: Right.

  Stewart: It’s difficult.

  Author: So now comedians have to be more careful as a character, or when saying things they don’t really believe?

  Stewart: Yeah, I think so. It’s sad. It’s a sad situation. But I don’t think you can afford to take a reactionary position for comic effect in a world where that reactionary position can be stripped of your intent and broadcast all over the place without your control. And I’m surprised to hear myself saying that, but I think now your intent has to go through every layer of the act as clearly as the word ‘Blackpool’ in a stick of rock, so it can be snapped at any point and you would still know what you’re trying to achieve. Isn’t that sad? But I do think that, because you don’t control the point at which the act is snapped anymore.

  [After twenty-seven minutes]

  Author: So that thing when people say, ‘It’s just a joke,’ you don’t think …

  Stewart: No, I think a joke is a powerful thing. I don’t think you can say it’s just a joke, no. I don’t think you can, because it’s harmful ideas. They can harm people. And some of the ones I tell I do intend them to harm people.

  [After twenty-eight minutes]

  Author: One of the things I’ve done is interview people who were in the audience at the Comedy Cellar and complained about things including race. One person said she didn’t want to hear that stuff on stage even in character because it emboldens people who really believe it, particularly since Trump came in.

  Stewart: Yeah, I understand. Again, Trump’s changed everything, as has Brexit. I mean, Brexit has sabotaged the Pub Landlord.

  Author: Al Murray’s character?

  Stewart: Yeah. When the character is the same as the people that led the campaign to leave Europe … It makes more sense what the Landlord says than things that some of the people in Vote Leave say.

  Author: Yeah.

  Stewart: You can’t be ironically anti-PC in America when the bloke in charge is saying let’s build a wall to keep the filthy Mexicans out, and has had, like, Born-Again Christians who believe the apocalypse is coming doing speeches in Jerusalem. You just can’t. If you imagine you’re satirising some liberal, PC cabal, well that cabal is not only powerless but is irrelevant now.

  Author: Is it powerless?


  Stewart: Well, the guy in charge of the country is saying for real … What can you say that’s more mad than the things he’s saying for real? It’s difficult, and I think a few of them have felt it’s changed. I know the ex-husband of quite a famous American comedian. He said she was struggling after Trump to do her mock-offensive schtick because you’ve got a genuinely offensive man in charge. I don’t know. It’s an interesting time to have this discussion because I think it’s all up in the air. I don’t really know. I’ve probably written and said things ten, fifteen years ago about freedom of speech in comedy that I’m not sure I’d agree with now, because there’s this rocket-powered accelerant behind stuff which means you lose control of the context.

  Author: You go through the cuttings and you can see your views changing with events, which is the way it’s supposed to work though, isn’t it, I think.

  Stewart: Yeah.

  Author: You also had this great quote which was, ‘If you try to control what people can say through legislation or intimidation or threat, then they’re going to push against the boundaries’, and I think it pushes people to the Right. I think that has happened in America and the UK.

  Stewart: Well, this is exactly what the writer of Jonathan Pie is saying, Andrew Doyle, who I used to know actually.

  Author: He was criticised a lot.

  Stewart: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know if I agree with him. He said the reason there’s … That Tommy … He keeps changing his name doesn’t he, the EDL bloke, he led a march for freedom of speech through London, and Andy Doyle’s point, I think, was that this has been caused by liberals telling them what they can’t say.

  Author: What do you think?

  Stewart: I don’t know.

  Author: See, I thought you’d take a much stronger line against him saying that.

  Stewart: No, no, I don’t agree with him. I think a lot of things have caused the rise of the EDL and I don’t think liberals is near the top of the list.

  Author: The English Defence League seem like an extreme case, but those who are around the middle … Like, I’ve got some relatives who are Conservatives, you know, and I see them shifting to the Right in their views.

  Stewart: I got in a cab the other night. It’s always good talking to cab drivers. And the guy goes, ‘What do you do for a living?’ And I went, ‘I’m a comedian.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, it must be difficult now with all this political correctness?’ And I went, ‘Well, I like political correctness, I’m a big supporter of it.’ He said, ‘Really?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ He goes, ‘Makes your job difficult though doesn’t it?’ And I went, ‘No, it made it better, because you had to be more creative and think about what you’re doing.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, it’s gone mad though hasn’t it?’